Laughing dog,
All i had to do was read your first sentence to realize you aren't from a western state with elk....I agree with part of what you say...But you cant just discount human population and compare things to thousands of years ago...
the problem is wolves are killing surplus elk...the ones we hunt...the elk that contribute to Idaho's economy....Elk numbers have been drastically reduced and tags have been cut in some units...calf recruitment has taken a dive across the map....THAT is why wolves are being managed....
Wolves kill all elk depending on the season....the weakesst elk in november just happen to be the mature herd bulls, worn out from the rut...
this does NOT help the heard be healthier...Wolves kill calves in the spring..I wouldnt call a calf elk "Ill, weak or less fit"...they are just easy prey..

You may have different dynamics with deer and wolves where you are from...but elk herds were much healthier here 10 years ago....and we have always had more suitable habitat than we have had elk....
Spend a couple winters here before you shoot your mouth off....all you will find on the borders between wolf packs are half eaten elk...killed for sport because they are congregated and easy prey in the snow.....

Joe nailed it down laughing wisco wimp.. These elk prior to man living here migrated to the Snake river plains in winter as well, guess what, no deep snows, and your ancient wolves did not have the advantage over your ancient elk, these modern day transplant wolves have over our land locked mountain elk, slaughter in the snows in winter, how wonderful.. It's ok though, nothing is wrong, keep believing the BS...

We have elk herds in Wisconsin and 50 packs of wolves as well. The elk herds are none the less growing. We probably get more snow than you in the north woods too. Maybe elk in the West have been without wolves too long and have lost their native robustness. Which I guess proves my point about culling. Well, if you want to "hunt" wimpy elk with no selective pressures on them, the more power to you. Myself, I'm not into shooting fish in a barrel.

Ten thousand years ago or so, lions also hunted the elk in your area.

Call me what you will if you think it confirms something. I'm glad to be of service, gentlemen.

laughing coyote....
Come to idaho....until you quit comparing apples to oranges...we cant have an intelligent discussion....
In return i will not pretend to know what is going on in your neck of the woods....and i wont go to wisconsin blogs and blow smoke about something I'm clueless about...

Deal>>?

Obviously wisco never hunted elk in Idaho, these elk were never tame, and were never like shooting fish in a barrel. Just our Sawtooth Wilderness area has over 30 ten thousand foot peaks, this state is vertical, I have seen 30' deep snows in the back country. Sounds to me like the wisco wolves are smaller and prefer the wisco deer surplus to me..

Idaho's wolves love elk so much their killing them all..

Elk numbers in the Lolo and Sawtooth elk management zones are seriously depressed – by wolf predation. The science (years of high quality elk and wolf population radio-telemetry data) is clear. Wolf predation is depressing elk production well below what we should expect for the habitat quality in those zones. Elk habitat quality was following a natural, declining trend after the 1910 fires. The depressed elk production and the factors contributing to that depression is a combination of habitat quality AND substantial wolf predation on productive cow and calf elk.
---Mark Gamblin--South West Director Idaho Fish and Game..August 15, 2009, 2:40 pm

The Lolo and Sawtooth Zones the recent, sharp decline in elk productivity and recruitment I referred to is due to wolf predation of productive cows and their calves, not hunting mortality. The radio-telemety data we have for cows and calves in those zones gives us the fate of each collared elk and allows us to accurately estimate the wolf predation rate of cows and calves. Having good baseline data for these elk populations from previous years, including hunting harvest data, we can say with certainty that wolf predation has pushed elk production and recruitment in these two zones below levels that have required substantial reductions in the elk hunting opportunity that was allowable with essentially the same habitat when wolves were introduced. HOW we manage this new wildlife population dynamic (elk-wolf) and the necessary changes in public uses and benefits of those resources is of course our challenge.--- Mark Gamblin -----South West Director Idaho Fish and Game..August 15, 4:08 pm

You are probably right about the deer. I admit that I was being a bit disingenuous regarding the elk in Wisconsin, since the herds were recently re-introduced and the populations have nowhere to go but up. And yet they do it under pressure from wolves, which proves something. After all, elk like all prey know their particular predators (except humans, perhaps), just as wolves know them. You could say predator and prey are the result of a long arms war, and every part of the prey -- eyesight, speed, coloring, hearing, horns and hooves, grazing and movement patterns, etc. -- is tuned to defend itself against the predator, just as every part of the predator is tuned to bring down the prey. I'm no stranger to mountains, however, since I spend much of my working time in the Himalaya, alongside of which your mountains are mere foothills, and before that I walked thousands of miles around the North Cascades, climbing many of the peaks there too.

My question is, do you have scientific data -- that is, systematic observation and recording -- that wolves really do cause harm to elk herds? I've seen data the other way, but the hate for wolves seems to arise purely from prejudice, jealousy, and lack of understanding of the complex dynamics of predator-prey interrelationships. Animals who must use nature as their larder, their house, their nursery, and their medicine cabinet of course must be very skilled hunters (which humans see as ruthlessness, although I can't see anything more ruthless than shooting an animal from a quarter mile away where it can barely smell, much less kick or spear, you; except for humans, many inexperienced or inattentive predators are disposed by their prey, and wolves that didn't use teamwork and shrewdness to hunt would not stand a chance with elk or other large mammals; in fact, the only wolves and probably dogs that don't use teamwork is the beautiful golden wolf of the Tanzanian highlands, and that is due to their main prey being large rodents, which they catch by waiting and pouncing). Wolves are also fearsomely loyal, a trait we value in domestic canines: only one of the bitches births the young and the whole pack together care for them. Probably many humans would be better off if we took lessons on child care as well as hunting from them.

Much of the stuff that goes around on wolves is because humans can't stand to see dogs that aren't subservient to humans, so they manufacture all kinds of outrageous slander about them. All dogs are descended from wolves and particular breeds generally are the result of selection for one or two wolf attributes valued for one reason or another by humans, but except for perhaps for Malamutes and similar dogs, most dogs are just partial wolves.

I don't know why European peoples particularly have such antipathy towards wild canines. Native Americans saw them as their kin. Some peoples in Laos actually have very close relations with the wolf-like dogs of Asia, Cuon alpinus, watching crows to mark a kill and then going and sharing the kill with them and worshiping them as well.

Ted Kerasote, the author of "Merle's Door: Lessons from a Freethinking Dog" is a Wyoming elk hunter who describes in a very funny book how wolves make dogs, their relationship with the prey, and moreover is humble enough to respect and value not just the wolf in his dog but wolves in nature as well, allowing them to serve as teachers.

I would be most happy to come and learn from you fellows, particularly if we cared to listen to each other. I had meant to pass through there this summer on my bicycle to allow myself to train (on small mountains), for my work in the Himalaya, until I broke some bones unfortunately. Though of course your beers probably can't measure up to Wisconsin brews, I wouldn't mind meeting you over some of your local drink.

I only put water and natural squeezed juices thru my body. No beer. I'm certainly not against a visit and some truth telling.

The University of Montana did a recent study of YNP elk, dying of malnutrition due to spending to much time in deep cover away from proper grazing locations due to wolves pressure. We have the cow to calf ratios listed above by Gamblin, also consider this, healthy bulls need to rest and replenish energy stores post rut, prior to winter, a major portion of bulls would survive the man hunters, but not the wolf packs.

I simply believe we had the math figured on this Idaho eco system, 300 wolves, 10 packs, was close to reality, it has gone far beyond this and the damage is apparent.. To honest folks. This wolf hatred is a myth, the truth is elk are being systematically wiped out here, several hunt units have cut tag opportunity by 50%, the Sawtooth Unit alone has allowed cow elk hunts for over 40 years, now this opportunity is off the table.. Due to wolves over predations of cows and calves..

I'm on the ground here, I know these migrations, i travel around and watch several of these migrations, there are those who try to say well the elk have changed what they do now, BS, the migrations have not changed, just the number of migrating elk has.. Flip, I was seeing 70-80 cow elk, with two calves in the group six years ago, and it only has gotten worse..

And to top it off, Idaho has never in my lifetime, 50 years, had deer or elk to carrying capacity in all zones.. Never a surplus, and then we had massive winter kill offs in 1992, and then in 1995 we have a new predator introduced. When fact most of us true woodsmen were seeing wolves in the 70s -80s.. Any body claiming you cannot have to many predators in and eco system are out of their minds..

The wintering ranges speak volumes here, I travel to all winter ranges for and eyes on look, someone is blowing smoke up the public's arse.. and i have done this for decades, as I collected shed antlers.. Well I have not had the pick up box filled with sheds in five years now...

Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another.

Try some Egyptian tea, helps with those upset tummy's. :(

Defenseless?

Do you know what that reminds me of? Wiping out little countries. Personally I think that is completely wrong and i see you have a phantom wolf and.... I don't know but I will think of something. We will not stop if you do we will then find something and take it away. Do you know haw evil your plan sounds?

The plan sounds good Joe, what time do we meet. Wolflover, you need a pet around the house, not wild animals to love.

The plan sounds good Joe, what time do we meet. Wolflover, you need a pet around the house, not wild animals to love.

I have a lot of pets. So that is not a good response.

Nope not eating them....just lettin em rot to save a few thousand elk...which are a good source of renewable protien...Alaska doesn't want them...they are shooting them from planes there...hopefully we can learn from canada and alaska WHO BOTH HAVE HUNTING SEASONS!!!!

Worms gotta eat, wolf left overs should suffice.

Hey people, as of now it is legal. So stop complaining. Go hug a tree. Or a wolf. See what happens then.

Ok timmy how about you pay for the helicopter @1500.00$per hr, the man hours, the transportation and then go to canada and negotiate with them to take A bunch of spoiled wolves that are used to lamb and beef up there! I for one who pay for the care of this alien to our enviroment (canadian grey wolf) through my hunting license and paraphanalia don't feel like having those surcharges jacked up even more so I can not afford to go out and enjoy nature too. Think about it. Better yet make a million dollar donation to the USFWS, and then let's talk.

Send them to Alaska? How about a reality check? Alaska kills more wolves than Idaho! In fact the state (Alaska) actively kills wolves to reduce their impact on ungulate herds. (See attached article) www.wolfsongnews.org The article references a herd of caribou that had dwindled from 4,100 to only 600. This management strategy is now being applauded as a success as the caribou numbers are coming back. This is the future for Idaho deer and elk without wolf management. There was much lamenting and gnashing of teeth by Defenders over the 28 wolves killed to facilitate the recovery. (This included pups) However lacking in all of the weeping was any thought to the 3500 head of caribou slaughtered by wolves. If people cannot deal with the reality that all of our wildlife outside of national parks must be managed and because of that management has been healthier than ever in the history of our country, then I suggest we do the humane thing and simply deport the Canadian Wolf back to Canada, eh.

London, you are a worthless piece of crap!

Coyotes gotta eat.

Do you still do meth And serve cheap food at the Haven..?

You don't know who I am - I have never done meth or worked at the Haven. Thanks for the friendly assumptions, though....

"I was just out hunting in the sawtooth zone yesterday and saw huge wolf tracks all over the place, I thought it was great! It was just me and the wolves and no republican white trash sissies and their motorized republican wheelchairs!"
Too bad that you saw so much wolf sign, otherwise it might have just been you, the deer or elk, and your derogatory remarks that are "personal attacks, libelous and inappropriate" and violate the terms of posting on this site.

how is it an attack to call someone a republican sissie but not to accuse them of using meth????

Or is using meth normal in your group of pals???

ww-
Extremists on both sides of the issues are out of hand. Personal attacks are not part of a healthy debate and do nothing except polarize. I have no buddies that use meth or any other drug. We get "hi" by climbing a mountain and chasing elk, deer, and now wolves. I also am not a republican.

Just narrowing down who you are. republican white trash sissies ? democrat white trash sissies ? A meth snorting waitress ? Whats the difference ? You want to reach below the belt and start tossing crap like and animal, ok, I'm cool with that to, I have a crap bucket full of childish insults as well, you reap what you sow.

I also have never done meth, waited tables, nor have I been duped into following a party with a party line, and nothing else to offer man nor beast excepting BS.. You party followers are just that, followers based on faith of leaders who are men.. Very dumb indeed.. They have us all 60 trillion in the hole, Debt, debt, debt, do ya follow me, some one has to pay that back.. Wake up, you are the same thing as the other party followers...DUPED.